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 Further Customization Capabilities

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Magi
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PostSubject: Further Customization Capabilities   Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:20 pm

I think it would help expand the game quite a bit if there was more customization opportunities. For example, using XML sheets as Monster definitions would allow players to customize the monsters, and XML files for custom intro/script, allowing for mods potentially. Possibly it could be coded that it recognizes a compressed-together Tileset and Monster Definitions file as a Mod file and uses them together accordingly?

I know that these ideas would take some immense amounts of coding, but it may be a good investment to keep the game new without needing to release massive amounts of updates.

-Magi
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Nahjor
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Thu Jan 01, 2009 8:58 pm

Well, I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit. Zixinus suggested a custom level editor a while ago, and I've constructed an extremely early prototype of such an app. Unfortunately, that exercise raised more questions than it answered, which led work on it to stop until I figure out some answers.

Basically, the fundamental problem is that MG is not equipped to handle scripting in any way, shape, or form. Everything is written in C#, and compiled. I've written scripting languages before, and I've implemented existing ones before, and it's an absolute black hole of work that can kill a project faster than just about anything else I've seen.

That said, there are some approaches that would allow considerable flexibility without causing me to throw myself off a cliff. Smile I've experimented with pulling in C# code at runtime, and with creating a set of flexible basic objects that would allow one to build fairly interesting objects without having a full scripting language available.

Suffice to say, I'm definitely thinking about this. I don't want to say that it's going to happen, because such statements tend to come back and bite me in the ass, but it's likely.
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Magi
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:59 pm

Nahjor wrote:
Well, I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit. Zixinus suggested a custom level editor a while ago, and I've constructed an extremely early prototype of such an app. Unfortunately, that exercise raised more questions than it answered, which led work on it to stop until I figure out some answers.

Basically, the fundamental problem is that MG is not equipped to handle scripting in any way, shape, or form. Everything is written in C#, and compiled. I've written scripting languages before, and I've implemented existing ones before, and it's an absolute black hole of work that can kill a project faster than just about anything else I've seen.

That said, there are some approaches that would allow considerable flexibility without causing me to throw myself off a cliff. Smile I've experimented with pulling in C# code at runtime, and with creating a set of flexible basic objects that would allow one to build fairly interesting objects without having a full scripting language available.

Suffice to say, I'm definitely thinking about this. I don't want to say that it's going to happen, because such statements tend to come back and bite me in the ass, but it's likely.


It doesn't particularly have to be a scripting language. It could just be XML files that the game reads values from. For example, the default files could store:

Name
HP
Max HP
MP
Max MP
Damage(If that's how you define it)
Drop(Item path of the item it can drop)

Of all of the monsters, and the rest of the values(Such as special abilities and such) would be defined in the code.

Then a part of the XML file for the game's text/script, from which it would read the names of the 5 Mages and their dungeon intros and other text from the game.

Then possibly a part that defines the names for the different spells and abilities.

I believe it should be reasonably easy to adapt the game to read certain variables from a XML file, at least from what I know about C#.
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:27 pm

Yeah; what you're describing there would be pretty easy. I'm just not sure that provides enough flexibility to actually be worth it. I mean, how much mileage can you really get out of nudging a mob's HP or MP up or down, assuming you can't change anything about their special abilities? Maybe more than I think, but it seems to me that if I'm going to go through the effort of exposing in-game objects to be editable, I should do it in a manner that allows some fairly substantial changes.

What I'm currently leaning toward (oh, man, am I going to pay for saying I'm going to try to do this) is allowing users to build scenarios. These might be a single level, like the tutorial, or they might be several levels strung together.

They would be able to use existing game mobs, items and features, as well as be able to construct their own, with some limits... Basically, anything that fits a relatively simple pattern, they can do. So, it would be possible to create something like a Mirror Knight or a Demilich. It would not be possible to create something like a Black Unicorn or a Gargoyle. As far as new features go, they would be able to construct things as complex as the doors and levers in the tutorial, but not as complex as...well...several things on Laxuno's level. New items... wearables and keys are OK, brand-new potion types are not. Things like that.

Scenarios would include altering character generation (e.g. start at level 5, or start with no spells, or start with only a choice between cosmic and elemental, etc).

This presents a substantial level of power and flexibility, but doesn't require me to generate a full-scale scripting language. (All this stuff would be defined in XML, which could be written either by hand or by a tool. Good thing there is, one can even encode and store images right in the XML.)


Now, this does not directly address the question of modifying the main game. However, one could simply extend the above, and allow for mod-packs as well as scenario-packs. Mod-packs would be applied to the base game, as opposed to a specific scenario. A mod-pack could contain new mobs/items/whatever (defined as above). Theoretically, it could include directives to modify certain variables about existing objects (raise/lower HP, etc). It could also contain directives to stop generating existing objects, and to modify chargen (as above).

How does that sound? Twisted Evil
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Magi
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:43 pm

Nahjor wrote:
Yeah; what you're describing there would be pretty easy. I'm just not sure that provides enough flexibility to actually be worth it. I mean, how much mileage can you really get out of nudging a mob's HP or MP up or down, assuming you can't change anything about their special abilities? Maybe more than I think, but it seems to me that if I'm going to go through the effort of exposing in-game objects to be editable, I should do it in a manner that allows some fairly substantial changes.

What I'm currently leaning toward (oh, man, am I going to pay for saying I'm going to try to do this) is allowing users to build scenarios. These might be a single level, like the tutorial, or they might be several levels strung together.

They would be able to use existing game mobs, items and features, as well as be able to construct their own, with some limits... Basically, anything that fits a relatively simple pattern, they can do. So, it would be possible to create something like a Mirror Knight or a Demilich. It would not be possible to create something like a Black Unicorn or a Gargoyle. As far as new features go, they would be able to construct things as complex as the doors and levers in the tutorial, but not as complex as...well...several things on Laxuno's level. New items... wearables and keys are OK, brand-new potion types are not. Things like that.

Scenarios would include altering character generation (e.g. start at level 5, or start with no spells, or start with only a choice between cosmic and elemental, etc).

This presents a substantial level of power and flexibility, but doesn't require me to generate a full-scale scripting language. (All this stuff would be defined in XML, which could be written either by hand or by a tool. Good thing there is, one can even encode and store images right in the XML.)


Now, this does not directly address the question of modifying the main game. However, one could simply extend the above, and allow for mod-packs as well as scenario-packs. Mod-packs would be applied to the base game, as opposed to a specific scenario. A mod-pack could contain new mobs/items/whatever (defined as above). Theoretically, it could include directives to modify certain variables about existing objects (raise/lower HP, etc). It could also contain directives to stop generating existing objects, and to modify chargen (as above).

How does that sound? Twisted Evil


Sounds perfect. I was primarily trying to keep it as simple as possible, and in the process managed to forget the entire reason I was suggesting it. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Thu Jan 08, 2009 4:20 pm

http://lukosdev.blogspot.com/2009/01/editor-cometh.html
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Magi
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:47 pm

Nahjor wrote:
http://lukosdev.blogspot.com/2009/01/editor-cometh.html


Incredible work, Nahjor. Does it have native support for tileswaps? Very Happy


The interface is great, I can't wait for the full version. Will I be able to be one of the testers?
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:02 pm

At the moment, it does not, but that would be trivial to add. I'll put it on the feature list.

I don't see why you couldn't be. Smile
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Magi
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:55 am

Nahjor wrote:
At the moment, it does not, but that would be trivial to add. I'll put it on the feature list.

I don't see why you couldn't be. Smile


Okay, thanks. It'd be best so we can see which tiles are which while editing the map and monsters and such.


Sounds good. I'm looking forward to testing the editor as hard as possible- I've found countless bugs in various games, betas, and programs before.
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Zixinus
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:33 am

First thought:

WOOH-HOOOH!

Awesome.

Second thought:

Can we have that where a massage is given (only once or as we can choose) if the player steps on a certain tile?

Third thought:

How do the ads work? Click on them once and they give Nahjor some money or how?
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:53 am

Zixinus wrote:
Second thought:

Can we have that where a massage is given (only once or as we can choose) if the player steps on a certain tile?

Yup. Smile

Zixinus wrote:

Third thought:

How do the ads work? Click on them once and they give Nahjor some money or how?

That's the gist of it, yeah. They're through Google's Adsense thing. My understanding is that it pays per-click, with the caveat that they have some checks in place to prevent gaming the system.
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DeeMer
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:00 am

Is it possible to put items inside of a wall that appear if you Dig it away?
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:29 am

Hmm. Interesting question. As it stands right now, you can, although the item will be visible even before the wall is dug away. Would that be a problem, for whatever it is that you're planning? Smile


On a more general note, if you guys have requests for specific things, now would be a good time to lay them out there. I'm actually ahead of schedule on this thing, for once. Smile
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Magi
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:06 pm

Ability to change the names of the spells/skills? Ability to change the intros/endings for the various mages? Ability to change the number of mages? (From the current number to 1, with it not asking what mage you want to follow if it's only 1)
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PostSubject: Re: Further Customization Capabilities   Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:53 pm

Top of my head:

- Signs, if you use them, you read them.

- Teleport circle/stone, depending on whether they work by simply stepping on them or using them. These will teleport you to a certain location.

- The ability to switch between maps by teleport, back and forth.

- The ability to lay out more than one Knowledge Sphere on a single dungeon.

- Flagged doors that only open if another criteria was met, like killing a certain enemy or switching a certain switch.

- Using custom level names (like, not "layer 4" but "Torture chamber", etc).

- The ability to make entities either calm or friendly by default.

- Fountains with costumizable amount of energy and the ability to "freeze" them, that is not changed when you drop a gem into them.
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