Further Customization Capabilities

I think it would help expand the game quite a bit if there was more customization opportunities. For example, using XML sheets as Monster definitions would allow players to customize the monsters, and XML files for custom intro/script, allowing for mods potentially. Possibly it could be coded that it recognizes a compressed-together Tileset and Monster Definitions file as a Mod file and uses them together accordingly?

I know that these ideas would take some immense amounts of coding, but it may be a good investment to keep the game new without needing to release massive amounts of updates.

-Magi

Well, I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit. Zixinus suggested a custom level editor a while ago, and I've constructed an extremely early prototype of such an app. Unfortunately, that exercise raised more questions than it answered, which led work on it to stop until I figure out some answers.

Basically, the fundamental problem is that MG is not equipped to handle scripting in any way, shape, or form. Everything is written in C#, and compiled. I've written scripting languages before, and I've implemented existing ones before, and it's an absolute black hole of work that can kill a project faster than just about anything else I've seen.

That said, there are some approaches that would allow considerable flexibility without causing me to throw myself off a cliff. I've experimented with pulling in C# code at runtime, and with creating a set of flexible basic objects that would allow one to build fairly interesting objects without having a full scripting language available.

Suffice to say, I'm definitely thinking about this. I don't want to say that it's going to happen, because such statements tend to come back and bite me in the ass, but it's likely.

Nahjor wrote:

Well, I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit. Zixinus suggested a custom level editor a while ago, and I've constructed an extremely early prototype of such an app. Unfortunately, that exercise raised more questions than it answered, which led work on it to stop until I figure out some answers.

Basically, the fundamental problem is that MG is not equipped to handle scripting in any way, shape, or form. Everything is written in C#, and compiled. I've written scripting languages before, and I've implemented existing ones before, and it's an absolute black hole of work that can kill a project faster than just about anything else I've seen.

That said, there are some approaches that would allow considerable flexibility without causing me to throw myself off a cliff. I've experimented with pulling in C# code at runtime, and with creating a set of flexible basic objects that would allow one to build fairly interesting objects without having a full scripting language available.

Suffice to say, I'm definitely thinking about this. I don't want to say that it's going to happen, because such statements tend to come back and bite me in the ass, but it's likely.

It doesn't particularly have to be a scripting language. It could just be XML files that the game reads values from. For example, the default files could store:

Name
HP
Max HP
MP
Max MP
Damage(If that's how you define it)
Drop(Item path of the item it can drop)

Of all of the monsters, and the rest of the values(Such as special abilities and such) would be defined in the code.

Then a part of the XML file for the game's text/script, from which it would read the names of the 5 Mages and their dungeon intros and other text from the game.

Then possibly a part that defines the names for the different spells and abilities.

I believe it should be reasonably easy to adapt the game to read certain variables from a XML file, at least from what I know about C#.

Yeah; what you're describing there would be pretty easy. I'm just not sure that provides enough flexibility to actually be worth it. I mean, how much mileage can you really get out of nudging a mob's HP or MP up or down, assuming you can't change anything about their special abilities? Maybe more than I think, but it seems to me that if I'm going to go through the effort of exposing in-game objects to be editable, I should do it in a manner that allows some fairly substantial changes.

What I'm currently leaning toward (oh, man, am I going to pay for saying I'm going to try to do this) is allowing users to build scenarios. These might be a single level, like the tutorial, or they might be several levels strung together.

They would be able to use existing game mobs, items and features, as well as be able to construct their own, with some limits... Basically, anything that fits a relatively simple pattern, they can do. So, it would be possible to create something like a Mirror Knight or a Demilich. It would not be possible to create something like a Black Unicorn or a Gargoyle. As far as new features go, they would be able to construct things as complex as the doors and levers in the tutorial, but not as complex as...well...several things on Laxuno's level. New items... wearables and keys are OK, brand-new potion types are not. Things like that.

Scenarios would include altering character generation (e.g. start at level 5, or start with no spells, or start with only a choice between cosmic and elemental, etc).

This presents a substantial level of power and flexibility, but doesn't require me to generate a full-scale scripting language. (All this stuff would be defined in XML, which could be written either by hand or by a tool. Good thing there is, one can even encode and store images right in the XML.)


Now, this does not directly address the question of modifying the main game. However, one could simply extend the above, and allow for mod-packs as well as scenario-packs. Mod-packs would be applied to the base game, as opposed to a specific scenario. A mod-pack could contain new mobs/items/whatever (defined as above). Theoretically, it could include directives to modify certain variables about existing objects (raise/lower HP, etc). It could also contain directives to stop generating existing objects, and to modify chargen (as above).

How does that sound?

Nahjor wrote:

Yeah; what you're describing there would be pretty easy. I'm just not sure that provides enough flexibility to actually be worth it. I mean, how much mileage can you really get out of nudging a mob's HP or MP up or down, assuming you can't change anything about their special abilities? Maybe more than I think, but it seems to me that if I'm going to go through the effort of exposing in-game objects to be editable, I should do it in a manner that allows some fairly substantial changes.

What I'm currently leaning toward (oh, man, am I going to pay for saying I'm going to try to do this) is allowing users to build scenarios. These might be a single level, like the tutorial, or they might be several levels strung together.

They would be able to use existing game mobs, items and features, as well as be able to construct their own, with some limits... Basically, anything that fits a relatively simple pattern, they can do. So, it would be possible to create something like a Mirror Knight or a Demilich. It would not be possible to create something like a Black Unicorn or a Gargoyle. As far as new features go, they would be able to construct things as complex as the doors and levers in the tutorial, but not as complex as...well...several things on Laxuno's level. New items... wearables and keys are OK, brand-new potion types are not. Things like that.

Scenarios would include altering character generation (e.g. start at level 5, or start with no spells, or start with only a choice between cosmic and elemental, etc).

This presents a substantial level of power and flexibility, but doesn't require me to generate a full-scale scripting language. (All this stuff would be defined in XML, which could be written either by hand or by a tool. Good thing there is, one can even encode and store images right in the XML.)


Now, this does not directly address the question of modifying the main game. However, one could simply extend the above, and allow for mod-packs as well as scenario-packs. Mod-packs would be applied to the base game, as opposed to a specific scenario. A mod-pack could contain new mobs/items/whatever (defined as above). Theoretically, it could include directives to modify certain variables about existing objects (raise/lower HP, etc). It could also contain directives to stop generating existing objects, and to modify chargen (as above).

How does that sound?

Sounds perfect. I was primarily trying to keep it as simple as possible, and in the process managed to forget the entire reason I was suggesting it.

http://lukosdev.blogspot.com/2009/01/editor-cometh.html

Nahjor wrote:

http://lukosdev.blogspot.com/2009/01/editor-cometh.html

Incredible work, Nahjor. Does it have native support for tileswaps?


The interface is great, I can't wait for the full version. Will I be able to be one of the testers?

At the moment, it does not, but that would be trivial to add. I'll put it on the feature list.

I don't see why you couldn't be.

Nahjor wrote:

At the moment, it does not, but that would be trivial to add. I'll put it on the feature list.

I don't see why you couldn't be.

Okay, thanks. It'd be best so we can see which tiles are which while editing the map and monsters and such.


Sounds good. I'm looking forward to testing the editor as hard as possible- I've found countless bugs in various games, betas, and programs before.

First thought:

WOOH-HOOOH!

Awesome.

Second thought:

Can we have that where a massage is given (only once or as we can choose) if the player steps on a certain tile?

Third thought:

How do the ads work? Click on them once and they give Nahjor some money or how?

Zixinus wrote:

Second thought:

Can we have that where a massage is given (only once or as we can choose) if the player steps on a certain tile?

Yup.

Zixinus wrote:

Third thought:

How do the ads work? Click on them once and they give Nahjor some money or how?

That's the gist of it, yeah. They're through Google's Adsense thing. My understanding is that it pays per-click, with the caveat that they have some checks in place to prevent gaming the system.

Is it possible to put items inside of a wall that appear if you Dig it away?

Hmm. Interesting question. As it stands right now, you can, although the item will be visible even before the wall is dug away. Would that be a problem, for whatever it is that you're planning?


On a more general note, if you guys have requests for specific things, now would be a good time to lay them out there. I'm actually ahead of schedule on this thing, for once.

Ability to change the names of the spells/skills? Ability to change the intros/endings for the various mages? Ability to change the number of mages? (From the current number to 1, with it not asking what mage you want to follow if it's only 1)

Top of my head:

- Signs, if you use them, you read them.

- Teleport circle/stone, depending on whether they work by simply stepping on them or using them. These will teleport you to a certain location.

- The ability to switch between maps by teleport, back and forth.

- The ability to lay out more than one Knowledge Sphere on a single dungeon.

- Flagged doors that only open if another criteria was met, like killing a certain enemy or switching a certain switch.

- Using custom level names (like, not "layer 4" but "Torture chamber", etc).

- The ability to make entities either calm or friendly by default.

- Fountains with costumizable amount of energy and the ability to "freeze" them, that is not changed when you drop a gem into them.

Magi wrote:

Ability to change the names of the spells/skills? Ability to change the intros/endings for the various mages? Ability to change the number of mages? (From the current number to 1, with it not asking what mage you want to follow if it's only 1)

Renaming spells is pretty much out. But the archmage things should be doable.

Zixinus wrote:

- Signs, if you use them, you read them.

- The ability to lay out more than one Knowledge Sphere on a single dungeon.

- Flagged doors that only open if another criteria was met, like killing a certain enemy or switching a certain switch.

- Using custom level names (like, not "layer 4" but "Torture chamber", etc).

Already done.

Zixinus wrote:

- Teleport circle/stone, depending on whether they work by simply stepping on them or using them. These will teleport you to a certain location.

- The ability to switch between maps by teleport, back and forth.

Should be feasible, bearing in mind that MG has no concept of persistence of levels; as soon as you leave one, it's chunked, and would be regenerated from scratch upon reentering it.

Zixinus wrote:

- The ability to make entities either calm or friendly by default.

- Fountains with costumizable amount of energy and the ability to "freeze" them, that is not changed when you drop a gem into them.

Definitely doable.

I know this might be a big bother, but would something like custom items be doable without too much fuss?

Like, a ring of infinite levitation with custom title?

EDIT:

Quote :

Should be feasible, bearing in mind that MG has no concept of persistence of levels; as soon as you leave one, it's chunked, and would be regenerated from scratch upon reentering it.

I could work with that.

However I have to ask: monster drops. Can they be edited or "assured"? Say, that you can change the percentage of how likely a monster is to drop an item? Or to specify what item would the dead monster drop?

Zixinus wrote:

I know this might be a big bother, but would something like custom items be doable without too much fuss?

Like, a ring of infinite levitation with custom title?

Custom wearables are already done; the item you describe is perfectly doable.

Nahjor wrote:

Magi wrote:

Ability to change the names of the spells/skills? Ability to change the intros/endings for the various mages? Ability to change the number of mages? (From the current number to 1, with it not asking what mage you want to follow if it's only 1)

Renaming spells is pretty much out. But the archmage things should be doable.

Bah. I've been slamming my head into this for a while, and there's just no simple way to set up changing the archmages around. I'll leave it on the list for later releases, but it's not going to be in the first version.



On the bright side, that was the last thing on the to-do list. Beta info will be going up today or tomorrow.

Nahjor wrote:

Nahjor wrote:

Magi wrote:

Ability to change the names of the spells/skills? Ability to change the intros/endings for the various mages? Ability to change the number of mages? (From the current number to 1, with it not asking what mage you want to follow if it's only 1)

Renaming spells is pretty much out. But the archmage things should be doable.

Bah. I've been slamming my head into this for a while, and there's just no simple way to set up changing the archmages around. I'll leave it on the list for later releases, but it's not going to be in the first version.



On the bright side, that was the last thing on the to-do list. Beta info will be going up today or tomorrow.

Would it be simple to allow the player to disable the archmages then? I'm planning on making Pirate and Pokemon mods, and I don't think either Pirates or Pokemon want anything to do with them.

Zixinus' above question about monster drops is also interesting aswell. It was an edit to his previous post so I don't know if you saw it.

Magi wrote:

Would it be simple to allow the player to disable the archmages then? I'm planning on making Pirate and Pokemon mods, and I don't think either Pirates or Pokemon want anything to do with them.

Hmm. Yeah, I could add an option to turn off archmages. Were you planning on making these as a set of self-contained levels, or making them mods to the main game? If the latter, how would you see the end of the game going, without the archmages?

Magi wrote:

Zixinus' above question about monster drops is also interesting aswell. It was an edit to his previous post so I don't know if you saw it.

Ooo. Good eye, I did not see that. Yeah, that's possible. You can tweak your mobs to create any item you want on their square, before they die.

Nahjor wrote:

Magi wrote:

Would it be simple to allow the player to disable the archmages then? I'm planning on making Pirate and Pokemon mods, and I don't think either Pirates or Pokemon want anything to do with them.

Hmm. Yeah, I could add an option to turn off archmages. Were you planning on making these as a set of self-contained levels, or making them mods to the main game? If the latter, how would you see the end of the game going, without the archmages?

Magi wrote:

Zixinus' above question about monster drops is also interesting aswell. It was an edit to his previous post so I don't know if you saw it.

Ooo. Good eye, I did not see that. Yeah, that's possible. You can tweak your mobs to create any item you want on their square, before they die.

Sounds great. I meant level packs- but as far as archmage-less mod endings go I'd say possibly just making the end a predefined level with a custom boss monster and end script.

Magi wrote:

Sounds great. I meant level packs- but as far as archmage-less mod endings go I'd say possibly just making the end a predefined level with a custom boss monster and end script.

Well, if you meant level packs, you're in luck, as archmages have no bearing on those whatsoever. As far as specifying custom boss levels...that's easier said than done. I'll poke around at it a little, but that may well end up being shuffled off for a later release.

The "boss" thing: that's why I asked for flagged doors. That way, setting up a boss fight can be relatively easy.

What would be more pointed is a costum-entity editor. I think that warrant a different program then the map editor, although it would be convenient for the two to be linked.